Tuesday, December 13, 2005
Should mercy have been shown?
Stanley "Tookie" Williams was executed today. The co-founder of "Crips, one of the world's biggest and deadliest gangs, in Los Angeles in 1971" was put to death by lethal injection after California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger denied clemency.
Convicted of killing four people in 1979, he has always claimed his innocence. During his time in jail he has received nobel prize nominations for his influential books and teachings denouncing gang violence.
I would be interested to hear peoples views upon the death penalty in this case or more general if you wish. I cannot help but feel slightly disturbed at the death of Mr Williams after he demonstrated a reformed character, on top of the fact that he still claims his innocence. However some would argue that that was the main reason why he was denied clemancy.
Any thoughts?
# posted by Rob @ 11:33 am 
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I fully empathise will arguments against the death penalty but overall it seems clear to me that the execution of Tookie was the correct decision. He has never shown any remorse for his crimes (although he claims he never did them obviously) and while his work on death row has without doubt played a positive role in turning kids away from gang culure, this is not a suitable reason for abolishing the sentence he was given at the time. While evidence is highly unclear on the issue, nevertheless I hope that his death will serve as a deterent to others.
The man is credited for saving the lives of over 150,000 youths. Plus he has received a presidential award for his volunteer work. If that is not enough to save a person from death row then nothing is.
The evidence that was used against Tookie was highly dubious to say the least. Frankly this case alone eradicates even the smallest positives I found in the death penalty. California has executed a man that was actually giving something positive back to society, more than most innocent people would or could ever do. What ever happened to forgiveness? And also what sort of incentives does this send to people on death row about changing for the better? Its a disgrace.
The evidence that was used against Tookie was highly dubious to say the least. Frankly this case alone eradicates even the smallest positives I found in the death penalty. California has executed a man that was actually giving something positive back to society, more than most innocent people would or could ever do. What ever happened to forgiveness? And also what sort of incentives does this send to people on death row about changing for the better? Its a disgrace.
Forgiveness cannot come when there is no admission of guilt. The jury and every court up the chain, all the way to the California Supreme Court, found that there was no error in his conviction for murdering a store clerk and a Chinese family. His only defense was that he had since shaped up and that he no longer posed a threat, which itself is a "highly dubious" idea given that he still retained his membership in the Crips, the gang he helped found and one responsible for hundreds of deaths in the Los Angeles area alone, and that some of his books (written after he had supposedly reformed) were dedicated other mass murderers. Even if he was innocent of the four murders for which he was convicted, and the evidence seems to suggest that he was not, he bears responsibility for the hundreds of murders committed by the gang that he started and stayed a member of till the end. The only tragedy here is that it took the state of California 25 years to execute him. In Texas, he would have been dead at least 15 years ago.
This issue of death penalty draws on a much broader debate within the context of Britain and the life sentence. I for one am against the death penalty - however - it is not my place to suggest the Americans court system is wrong. Rather, I do believe that in Britain whatever the court decides that is that. For years now we have issued out life sentences to criminals only to find that they are out within 25 years - let alone all the ways you can narrow that down! Where is the justice in this?
Before, u rush to respond to this post, I want us to remember back to Ian Huntley - the guy that murdered those two little girls (in man. u. tops) a few years back. Now this is for those who believe in forgiveness...he has said that he is sorry - so much so he attempted to starve himself a few years ago. I believe that he should never be allowed out, he knew the rules – the same rules that apply to me and you - yet he broke them. The judge sentenced him to 7 life sentences yet knowing our judicial system he will be let out sooner rather than later. Thus, I pose this simple question to those who forgive, baring in mind the families of the victims; do you think he would be forgiven?
Before, u rush to respond to this post, I want us to remember back to Ian Huntley - the guy that murdered those two little girls (in man. u. tops) a few years back. Now this is for those who believe in forgiveness...he has said that he is sorry - so much so he attempted to starve himself a few years ago. I believe that he should never be allowed out, he knew the rules – the same rules that apply to me and you - yet he broke them. The judge sentenced him to 7 life sentences yet knowing our judicial system he will be let out sooner rather than later. Thus, I pose this simple question to those who forgive, baring in mind the families of the victims; do you think he would be forgiven?
*Rushes*
I think it is easy to confuse cases and whilst the Huntley example is an interesting one in terms of forgiveness, the "Tookie" case is quite different in that I am arguing like millions of others that he should have been spared the death penalty. Taking into account the reformed character he has shown, and both denouncing and regretting the setting up of the crips gang, I personally think he should have been spared death and instead lived his life out in prison.
As Jonathan Harris, one of Williams’ lawyers, said: “Our petition for clemency was based on Stanley Williams’ personal redemption, his good works and positive impact that those works have had on thousands and thousands of kids across this country and on Williams’ ability to continue to do those good works going forward.”
Unfortunately in my opinion, irrelevant of his past, his good work within jail has now been taken away.
On the issue of British courts, I could not agree more, sentences should stand no matter what the signs of rehabilitation are. This is quite different from the prospect of death.
In the case of Huntly, he will live his life forever haunted by the horrendous crimes he committed in jail. I dont think you should ever have to think about forgiveness in his case because it would be quite shocking if he requested it. For people to be able to ask for forgiveness, they first have to accept what they have done. If they accept what they have done then in the worst cases, death, rape etc, then they should not wish to seek forgiveness. It is quite simple.
Whilst you could use the above argument to undermine me over my points on the "tookie" case, for me this is a unique case and when a person is showing a reformed nature and acting positively for society, he should not have been put to death.
I think it is easy to confuse cases and whilst the Huntley example is an interesting one in terms of forgiveness, the "Tookie" case is quite different in that I am arguing like millions of others that he should have been spared the death penalty. Taking into account the reformed character he has shown, and both denouncing and regretting the setting up of the crips gang, I personally think he should have been spared death and instead lived his life out in prison.
As Jonathan Harris, one of Williams’ lawyers, said: “Our petition for clemency was based on Stanley Williams’ personal redemption, his good works and positive impact that those works have had on thousands and thousands of kids across this country and on Williams’ ability to continue to do those good works going forward.”
Unfortunately in my opinion, irrelevant of his past, his good work within jail has now been taken away.
On the issue of British courts, I could not agree more, sentences should stand no matter what the signs of rehabilitation are. This is quite different from the prospect of death.
In the case of Huntly, he will live his life forever haunted by the horrendous crimes he committed in jail. I dont think you should ever have to think about forgiveness in his case because it would be quite shocking if he requested it. For people to be able to ask for forgiveness, they first have to accept what they have done. If they accept what they have done then in the worst cases, death, rape etc, then they should not wish to seek forgiveness. It is quite simple.
Whilst you could use the above argument to undermine me over my points on the "tookie" case, for me this is a unique case and when a person is showing a reformed nature and acting positively for society, he should not have been put to death.
If he regretted setting up the gang and denounced it, why did he retain his membership in the gang? Why did he dedicate books to people who were guilty of mass murders themselves? Tookie may have put up a good front trying to save himself, but it's doubtful that his turnaround was sincere.
I believe that killing someone for killing someone else is wrong. God said,
Thou shalt not kill. Punish them but not by death, life in prison instead (proper life in prison no "25" year lives).
Thou shalt not kill. Punish them but not by death, life in prison instead (proper life in prison no "25" year lives).
Yes Rich but that was the old testament and in the new there is judge not for ye shall be judged or to be more accurate,
love one another and do unto others as has been done unto you.
The fact is that had the guy been an IRA / UVF man in jail he would have been freed and be a councillor or member of the Northern Ireland Assembly as someone who had sought to turn youth away from violence. In short we in these Isles are a darn sight more civilised than our colonial brethren.
If I didn't try and practice that I would never have rejoined the Tory party.
James
love one another and do unto others as has been done unto you.
The fact is that had the guy been an IRA / UVF man in jail he would have been freed and be a councillor or member of the Northern Ireland Assembly as someone who had sought to turn youth away from violence. In short we in these Isles are a darn sight more civilised than our colonial brethren.
If I didn't try and practice that I would never have rejoined the Tory party.
James
I misquoted it was do onto others as you would want done unto you.
the comment re gang members who reform being included in the political process is a valid one re the UK.
the comment re gang members who reform being included in the political process is a valid one re the UK.
Oh and Thou shall not kill is one Jesus main list of comments of keep the commandments and then do unto others as you would wish done unto you.
If the three faith communities could keep that we would be nearer peace.
If the three faith communities could keep that we would be nearer peace.
If the commandment "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" means that execution for murder is wrong, we could also say that keeping someone in prison for the rest of their lives is equally wrong since we wouldn't want to stay in jail for the rest of our lives, either. You see, the common misconception is that the death penalty is about vengeance. The truth is that the death penalty is about protecting society from the threat that a premeditated murderer poses. As Chris noted, Tookie refused to do anything disloyal to his gang, was involved in multiple attacks inside the prison, and was also involved in numerous escape attempts. He had already shown himself to be a threat in prison. Can you imagine if he escaped into the general population? Despite his last-minute good guy act, this man was a threat and was justly executed.
While crime may have risen in death-penalty states, the murder rate has dropped. Thus, the death penalty can be seen as an effective deterrent against murder. Lifelong incarceration is not always an effective preventive measure since the murderer will still pose a risk to fellow inmates, prison guards, and, if he escapes, the general population.
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